Was Michigan snubbed in the Big Ten awards?
Some thoughts on the Big Ten awards announced this evening:
1. Do you think some decided on Tom Izzo for coach of the year before William Buford hit that shot yesterday?
Before the last week of the season, Izzo was a lock for coach of the year. Needing just one win to lock up an undisputed title, however, the Spartans dropped games to Indiana and Ohio State.
The mythical Daily Big Ten selection would have gone to John Beilein, followed by Tom Crean then Tom Izzo.
2. Aaron Craft over Draymond Green for defensive player of the year?
Looks like voters took a peek at the steals leaders and mailed off the ballot. Done and done. But a better defender than Green, who 28 steals, 12 blocks and 159 defensive rebounds in Big Ten games? Really?
Is Craft even the best defender on Ohio State?
As the Big Ten Geeks asked on Twitter, “Moreover, if Craft is so fantastic on D, why is it Buford that most often draws the other team’s top player?”
3. If you had to win a game, would you rather start Trey Burke and Cody Zeller or Tim Frazier and John Shurna?
The co-Big Ten freshmen of the year belonged on the first team. They are better players than Frazier and Shurna, who put up big scoring stats on inferior teams.
All of that said, we’re just picking around the edges. The picks are harder in the Big Ten this year because the league is so good and so deep.
Related articles
- Big Ten Poll Watch: Week 18 (dailybigten.com)
March 5, 2012 at 9:06 pm
Um I’d take the guys who were 1 and 2 in B10 scoring to take the shot. . .plus it’s not just about pts. Your guys Burke and Zeller are 7 and 10 in overall productivity. You know, 2nd team.
March 5, 2012 at 9:16 pm
I would take Zeller 100 times out of 100 before Shurna if I had to win a game – let alone play a full season.
You wouldn’t?
March 5, 2012 at 9:25 pm
Nope. And not just for your last shot scenario either.
John Shurna 360 pts 86 rebs 48 ast 22 stl 31 blk
Cody Zeller 273 pts 105 rebs 19 ast 15 stl 20 blk
(I like having my dorky B10 fantasy stats handy.. .)
March 5, 2012 at 9:45 pm
What last shot scenario? I didn’t raise that issue.
As far as your dorky B10 fantasy stats, try these numbers:
Plus/minus
Zeller +293
Shurna +15
Offensive rating
Zeller 127.8
Shurna 117.2
And a bunch of others:
http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?p2=john-shurna&p1=cody-zeller
March 5, 2012 at 9:35 pm
How ’bout if I reframe the question (curious as to your responses) – If you had to take one current Big Ten player to hit a last shot for your team, who would you take?
I’m not taking anyone on any of these lists. Give me Matt Gatens.
March 5, 2012 at 9:46 pm
Ralph Sampson III
March 5, 2012 at 9:49 pm
To be clear, that wasn’t the question. I was talking about which player do you want on your team if you want to win a game – Zeller or Shurna.
Given Indiana 2012 vs Indiana 2011 with exactly the same team, plus Zeller, I don’t know how that is even a difficult question.
As far as the last shot question, Matt Roth if it’s from three and he doesn’t have to create his own shot (which is rarely the case in final shots).
Otherwise … hmm. Gatens is a good choice. Robbie Hummel of the last three weeks. Buford of yesterday.
March 5, 2012 at 9:58 pm
Eh, Zeller played far fewer minutes on a better team. Put him in those extra mins that Shurna had to play with the Cats and watch that rating and plus-minus come down.
And far as it being a difficult question, Shurna somehow fooled both the coaches and the media on the vote.
I guess I’ll take Will Buford for my last shot if RSIII won’t.
March 5, 2012 at 10:04 pm
Please show your work on how Zeller’s plus/minus and rating would go down – and by how much. And it is +293 to +15.
And, if he played more minutes, wouldn’t your pure aggregate numbers for Shurna look less impressive?
March 5, 2012 at 10:13 pm
And, as far as being a “better team,” I again refer you to 2010-11 Indiana vs 2011-12 Indiana.
What is different? Only one player that played any meaningful minutes.
March 5, 2012 at 10:15 pm
The entire team is one year older with one more year’s experience, right? He certainly helped though.
March 5, 2012 at 10:21 pm
Heh. Helped.
March 5, 2012 at 10:13 pm
Fatigue sets in. . . Z’s playing when his team is ahead. . .they play differnt positions. . .lots of things that would affect it.
Plus your stats are for the entire season, and mine are for B10 games which take into consideration almost identical opponents.
When it comes down to it, he made 2nd team. No small feat and he will continue to improve/be a force in the league and someday reach 1st team. If he stays in school. . .
March 5, 2012 at 10:17 pm
He’ll stay for at least 2, probably 3 years.
March 5, 2012 at 10:23 pm
Tim Frazier without a doubt deserved his first team selection. I’m kind of surprised he didn’t make the coaches first team. I don’t think Taylor played like a first team guy this year. Aaron Craft – really questionable as defensive POY. I’m really quite confused about the Shurna/Zeller debate. Shurna had a better season. Hard to argue that both the coaches and media got it all wrong.
March 5, 2012 at 10:27 pm
You can’t imagine the media and a group of people that includes Bruce Weber getting it wrong?
March 5, 2012 at 10:34 pm
I feel like the coaches who are around these players all season and game plan for them, watch film, make scouting reports etc. probably know the players in the league the best. Same with media members who cover these student athletes day in and day out. Coaches and media members are undoubtedly more knowledgeable about the players in the Big Ten than I am, so when they agree on certain guys, I have a tough time disputing it.
March 5, 2012 at 10:36 pm
Except Aaron Craft and Jordan Taylor.
March 5, 2012 at 10:39 pm
Maybe Zeller can get on the first team next year if he beats out A.J. Hammons for the F/C spot.
March 5, 2012 at 10:41 pm
Also, I might as well go all out and predict that Penn State beats IU in the tournament.
March 5, 2012 at 10:44 pm
Could happen. Unlikely, but it could.
March 5, 2012 at 10:44 pm
I said “when coaches and media agree on certain guys, I have a tough time disputing it”. Taylor wasn’t agreed upon between the coaches and media, so that’s why I disputed that. And only the coaches pick a defensive POY, so there’s not even a chance for the media to disagree. Maybe they would’ve picked someone else. So that’s why I disputed that. But there was no disagreement about Shurna over Zeller.
March 5, 2012 at 10:45 pm
Nice parsing, counselor.
March 5, 2012 at 10:46 pm
Yeah, I don’t even really believe IU is going to lose to them.
March 5, 2012 at 10:47 pm
And come on: “You can’t imagine the media and a group of people that includes Bruce Weber getting it wrong?”
That’s funny.
March 5, 2012 at 10:49 pm
it was, i liked it.
March 5, 2012 at 10:50 pm
OK. I didn’t want to have to accuse you of being humorless.
March 5, 2012 at 10:27 pm
Shurna had a better season because there were no other weapons on NW. You put Zeller on NW, and I guarantee that NW wins at least 3 more games. He’s that good.
March 5, 2012 at 10:28 pm
Including the Indiana game.
March 5, 2012 at 10:31 pm
So a good player on a bad team only has good stats because he’s on a bad team?
March 5, 2012 at 10:34 pm
No, except an All Big Ten player should be able to elevate all of his teammates’ ability, i.e Zeller.
March 5, 2012 at 10:42 pm
Shurna and Frazier both had elevated stats because they took by far the most shots in the league (14.7 and 15.3 per game). The next closest was Hummel at 13.8. After that? Draymond Green at 12.6.
March 5, 2012 at 10:53 pm
I really like Tim Frazier a lot. I can’t really argue that his PPG were higher than they might’ve been on another team because Penn State is SO, SO atrocious and have virtually no one else to play around him. His improvement from last year to this year was remarkable (though he was playing 7 more minutes per game). I am pulling for him to win Player of the Year next year, if he has a similar stat line to this season. Unfortunately, that probably won’t happen because Penn State will probably finish last in the conference and his name is not Andre Dawson.
March 5, 2012 at 10:55 pm
And he can’t hit 49 homers.
March 5, 2012 at 10:58 pm
Yes, Drew Crawford is terrible.
March 5, 2012 at 11:12 pm
I’ll keep specific opinions to myself, but I think that all conference honors should be given out like Golden Gloves in baseball, by position. Put 2 guards, 2 forwards, and a center (or bigger forward) in there. I know very few teams pay this lineup anymore, but it sets a quota for the players to shoot at. If I’m a guard, I have to be one of the 2 best guards in the league…not just one of the top 5 players based off of the media and coach’s ratings.
March 5, 2012 at 11:15 pm
So that would argue for Zeller in this case – with Green and Sullinger at forward?
March 6, 2012 at 9:19 am
Let me preface this by saying you all know I’m a Sparty. I think Trey Burke is the best PG in the league right now. I think he’s better than Taylor (who I think is overrated). I think he’s much better offensively than Craft. I think he steps up and takes big shots and, even when Hardaway disappears, Burke is there to take over. Zeller is very good, as well, but Burke has the ball in his hands when the game matters. I wish he went to my school.
March 6, 2012 at 9:32 am
This PG conversation will get even more fun when Yogi gets to Bloomington.
March 6, 2012 at 9:47 am
More on Zeller’s highly efficient season:
http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/51138/burke-zeller-square-off-for-big-ten-foy
March 6, 2012 at 2:09 pm
I don’t know how anyone could take Zeller over Shurna to win a college game today. If we are talking pro prospects, then absolutely, Zeller is the choice. Shurna carried a garbage team (which is what NU is) to the brink of qualifying for the NCAA tourney. Shurna drew all the defense’s attention to the point that a mediocre player like Crawford could be 5th in the Big Ten in scoring. Seriously, who on NU (other than Shurna) could start for Indiana? Not only that, but Shurna overcame the complete coaching incompetence that Carmody provides to be the leading scorer in the Big Ten. I don’t think other Big Ten fans can appreciate what it means to make NU basketball this relevant. It is more difficult than making Indiana or Duke football relevant. Shurna’s accomplishments cannot be summed up in numbers because he is at a disadvantage in every conference game they play before the ball is even tipped.
March 6, 2012 at 3:18 pm
While undoubtedly true about Shurna’s impact on the Wildcats, might I introduce you to the 2010-11 Indiana Hoosiers? Exact same team, just a year older and Zeller. 12 wins to 24 wins.
It would seem there’s a better case to be made for Zeller on the “impact on the team” metric, as he didn’t take them to a cusp to an NCAA bid. He took them to a 3 or 4 seed.
March 6, 2012 at 3:23 pm
I still would make the argument that they have far more talent around him. If you took Shurna off the Wildcats, you are looking at an 8 or 9 win team.
March 6, 2012 at 3:25 pm
Oh, most definitely.
March 6, 2012 at 4:31 pm
Fact: Crawford was 3rd team All Big Ten. If you believe the league’s Coaches and Media, of course. . .
March 6, 2012 at 4:40 pm
But Zeller didn’t even have a third-teamer to help him!
March 6, 2012 at 5:08 pm
He had an honorable mention and all defense cast in Watford and Oladipo along with the guy with the intimidating tatoo!
March 6, 2012 at 7:55 pm
I am not trying to say that Zeller is not a heck of a player. I think that his supporting cast and coaching staff are much better than Shurna’s. His team also achieved more than Shurna’s team, though, so the comparison between the two is probably a wash. Honestly, I would probably move Zeller to first team over Hummel. Hummel was probably a sentimental pick. He played well coming back from the injuries, but probably should have been on the 2nd team.